Jaime Hartman (00:07):
Welcome to the AIP Summit Podcast, your go- to resource for taking control of your autoimmune health, presented by AIP Certified Coaches. Hi, I'm Jaime Hartman. And
Marie-Noelle Marquis (00:18):
I'm Marie-Noel Marquis, and we are here to equip you with the tools, knowledge, and support you need to effectively use the autoimmune protocol.
Jaime Hartman (00:25):
And today we are talking about the healing power of nature. So today's episode is one I've been wanting to do for a while because it's about something that is free, accessible, and proven to be a highly effective intervention that helps people with autoimmune disease in a myriad of ways. We're talking about nature and not in some kind of vague, just go touch grass kind of way, but in a really specific science-backed way that I think is going to land differently for people who are dealing with autoimmune disease.
Marie-Noelle Marquis (01:03):
I do think there's a tendency to either overcomplicate healing in a way. I need to be on this strict diet, eat all these super foods every day, take these supplement, buy this gadget, get this lab panel and get this very strict regimen. And then to dismiss the everyday life stuff as just like, "Well, this isn't really real medicine." And what we're going to talk about today sits right at that intersection. So it's simple, but the biology behind it is genuinely fascinating, I think.
Jaime Hartman (01:35):
Exactly. So we're going to focus on two things specifically, what nature does to the nervous system and also how sunlight and our circadian rhythm play into immune regulation. Marie-Noelle, before we dive in, do you have a memory of a time when being outside actually shifted something for you physically or emotionally during a hard health season?
Marie-Noelle Marquis (01:58):
Yes. I would say growing up, spending time outside was just part of life. I'm from Quebec and right in the region that is packed with trees and lakes. So if you didn't feel well, your parents would just tell you, "Go sit outside, get some sunshine, breathe fresh air, just be in nature." So we lived in a place that was really surrounded by nature. So it was just normal for us. I remember when I was a little kid, I developed this really strange rash and my mom would just literally have me lie in the sun because she believed that it would help it go away and it did. So from a very young age, I think I had this association between nature, sunlight, healing. That was just a thing. When I moved to California, which you think is a sunshine state, and life, whenever it would get challenging, whether it was emotionally challenging professionally or just I just was feeling overwhelmed, my instinct was always to go sit in nature somewhere or sit by the beach.
(03:07):
And that's where I would go to reconnect. But then it really wasn't until I had lived in Los Angeles for a bit that when I went back to visit places with more nature, that's when I feel like I really felt the difference, where I felt the power in a way of what nature could do. Because when you grow up with it, you almost take it for granted. But then that connection, once it's gone for a while and you return to it, then you feel the effects even amplify tenfold. So suddenly I was realizing how grounding, how calming, how rejuvenating, how I really ... In a sense it was my church, how I really needed it to just be like, yes, this is where I feel like I can connect with myself.
Jaime Hartman (03:51):
Great. Thanks for sharing. We're going to now set the context for why this matters specifically for people with autoimmune disease, because it's really not the same as people in the general population. So we're going to get science-y for a few minutes, but bear with us. We'll explain everything. With many autoimmune conditions, what is called the HPA axis is genuinely altered. Now, HPA stands for hypothalamus, pituitary, and adrenals. And it's this axis that governs our response to stressors. It's what puts us into a sympathetic nervous state where we're ready to fight or flee, or a parasympathetic nervous state where our body is able to rest and digest. And the thing about autoimmune disease is that it puts your body in a state of chronic low grade threat activation. The autoimmune system is overreacting in a lot of cases, and that overreaction feeds the stress response, and the stress response feeds more immune dysregulation.
(04:56):
It's a loop that just keeps spinning. The nervous system gets stuck in what's called sympathetic dominance. It's that fight or flight state. And cortisol rhythms end up going off. Inflammatory cytokines stay elevated. It's just a mess.
Marie-Noelle Marquis (05:11):
And also, here's the thing that I find so important. Chronic sympathetic activation, it's not just neutral, meaning it's not just like, "Oh yeah, I'm stressed all the time. Big deal." It actively suppresses the parts of the immune system that should be doing the repair work, and then it amplifies the parts that are creating the inflammation. So coming to nervous system is not just about feeling less stress. It really has a real downstream immune effect.
Jaime Hartman (05:42):
And this is where nature comes in because one of the most consistent findings in the research, and there is actually a lot of it now, is that nature exposure is one of the most reliable and rapid ways to shift the nervous system out of that sympathetic state and into the parasympathetic. Remember, parasympathetic is the rest and digest state. That's the state where healing can actually happen. So today we're going to look at two specific mechanisms, as I said a moment ago. We're going to look at the direct nervous system effects of being in natural environments and also the way that sunlight and circadian rhythm regulate immune function at a cellular level. Two very different pathways, but both are incredibly relevant for anyone managing autoimmune disease in any way, whether through doing the AIP or not. So let's start with the nervous system piece.
Marie-Noelle Marquis (06:35):
I want to start with something that kind of blew my mind when I first read about it, which is the research on awe, because I don't think most people connect the emotion of awe with immune function, but the link is real. So there's researchers at UC Berkeley that looked at what happened in the body when people experienced the awe moment, that feeling that you get when you're in front of something vast and beautiful, like a mountain range or a huge old growth forest or the ocean. And what they found was that the sense of awe significantly reduces pro- inflammatory cytokines, so specifically the cytokines associated with autoimmune activity.
Jaime Hartman (07:19):
So let me make sure I understand this. We're talking about the feeling of being small in front of something enormous that actually has a measurable anti-inflammatory effect.
Marie-Noelle Marquis (07:31):
Yes. Right? And then the working theory is that awe activates a positive overwhelm, I would say, and then interrupts the rumination loop that you were mentioning. So you can't stay in your head spinning anxious thoughts when you're generally awed by something. And that mental shift has a biological correlation to it.
Jaime Hartman (07:58):
I love that because it really reframes what a healing practice can look like. A healing practice doesn't need to be something intense. It doesn't need to be like a breathwork session or using a meditation app religiously. It could just be standing at the edge of a field and just looking.
Marie-Noelle Marquis (08:16):
Exactly. Going somewhere beautiful.
Jaime Hartman (08:19):
Now, the piece I wanted to talk about today is about something called Shinrinyoku, which is the Japanese practice of forest bathing. This has been studied extensively, particularly in Japan and South Korea.
Marie-Noelle Marquis (08:34):
And for anyone who's new to this term, it doesn't mean actually bathing in the forest, although I guess you could if you wanted to, there's water, but it means spinning intentional slow time in a forest environment. So absorbing it through all your senses.
Jaime Hartman (08:49):
Right. Forest bathing. Yep. And no exercise is even required. There's no goal. It's just being present in the forest. And the immune findings here are remarkable. Multiple studies have shown that after just two hours of forest bathing, people show a significant increase in NK cell activity. NK stands for natural killer. So natural killer cells are a key part of immune surveillance. These cells are the ones that find and destroy abnormal or infected cells. And in autoimmune disease, NK cell function is often impaired or dysregulated. So this is directly relevant. And the study found that the effects of this NK cell activation lasted for up to seven days after a single two hour session. So one day in the forest had immune effects that persisted all the way into the following week. Really amazing. Researchers think the mechanism has to do with the aromatic compounds that the trees and the plants release because those aromatic compounds are essentially their own natural defense chemicals.
(09:57):
When we breathe them in, they seem to have a direct biological effect on our immune cells. And if you're interested in learning more, I'm going to put a link to the study on Shinrin Yoko and NK cells in the show notes. Also, there's a link to a follow-up paper that I want to share that showed NK cell effects in forest bathing studies lasted more than 30 days after the trip.
Marie-Noelle Marquis (10:16):
I feel like we all know that feeling too, right? You go on vacation, you spend time in nature, you go camping today, and when you come back, you feel rejuvenated, but we actually are. It's not just stepping away from work as much as actually giving ourselves permission to be present in nature. And the forest is essentially medicating you just through the air.
Jaime Hartman (10:41):
Now, I know some listeners are going to be thinking, I live in a city, I don't have access to a forest, or maybe I'm not very mobile right now because of my symptoms. So I want to address that because I think it's important not to make this feel inaccessible. The research actually shows that the nervous system benefits of nature exposure happen along a spectrum. Going to a park works. Actually, just even being on a tree-lined street and just noticing that there are trees on this street or a backyard with some plants and being able to hear some birds. What seems to matter the most is getting natural light, some natural sound, particularly the bird calls and the water sounds, and if you can, the absence of urban noise and screens.
Marie-Noelle Marquis (11:26):
I think the auditory piece also is really interesting because there's specific research showing that natural soundscapes like bird song, like you said, flowing water, rustling leaves, measurably lower cortisol and activate the parasympathetic nervous system. So these sounds apparently send signals to the nervous system that your environment is safe, there are no predators nearby, and then that allows your body to let its guard down. And urban sound, traffic, sirens, construction, do the absolute opposite. And I think we all naturally know that and feel that inside. They keep that threat detection system activated even when there's no actual danger. So even just opening a window, sitting on a stoop, finding the one tree on your block, these things are not nothing. They actually will genuinely make an impact and do something for you. Funny story that I'm just now be crawling as we're talking about this, after I lived in LA for a couple years and I'm in heart of the city, nowhere near the ocean, I felt increasingly overwhelmed and that I don't tend to be an anxious person, but that overwhelming feeling just kept growing and not having access to nature already I could feel like was a part of it.
(12:48):
So I ended up turning my bedroom into a little park and I put fake grass instead of carpet, created a little reading corner with a park bench and lots and lots and lots of plants. I got a water fountain and actually would play nature sound when I would sit down to go to work. And now it's-
Jaime Hartman (13:06):
If it isn't in your capacity to completely remake your bedroom, like Marie-Noel just did, one thing that you could do is try something like we call nature snacks. So this would just be a brief but frequent dose of nature throughout the day. So maybe one big outing isn't going to work for you, but you could take five minutes where you just ... There's sun, you put your face in the sun, 10 minutes sitting by a house plant with the window open, this will accumulate. And we really have to be honest with ourselves. How often do we go days without any of that, especially during a flare when we're prioritizing rest, which is important, of course. We need to rest when we're in a flare, but there's a cycle that we want to try to interrupt because if that flare is keeping you inside, maybe you're spending more time on your screens and kind of in a unnatural environment.
(14:02):
The nervous system stays activated and that might extend to the flare.
Marie-Noelle Marquis (14:06):
That's really a good point. So building even these tiny nature moments, especially during the harder season, is part of the protocol. It's not separate from it, right?
(14:18):
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(15:05):
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Jaime Hartman (15:47):
Okay. I want to move into that second piece now, which is sunlight and circadian rhythm, because this one is particularly close to my heart. Marie-Noel, do you want to set it up?
Marie-Noelle Marquis (15:58):
Yes. Okay. So circadian rhythm is something most people associate with sleep. You've heard of your circadian clock. You know it's about when you feel tired and when you wake up. But what most people don't realize is that the circadian system is running through virtually every cell in the body, and the immune system is deeply tied to it.
Jaime Hartman (16:22):
That's right. And different immune functions are upregulated at different times of day. Inflammatory processes tend to peak in the early morning hours, which is why many autoimmune symptoms like joint stiffness, pain, are worse right when you wake up. But anti-inflammatory and repair processes are more active later in the day and definitely during deep sleep. So when your circadian rhythms are disrupted through irregular sleep, being exposed to artificial light at night, doing shift work or having chronic stress, any of these that disrupt your circadian rhythm, the immune rhythms get disrupted too, and that has real consequences for autoimmune disease activity.
Marie-Noelle Marquis (17:07):
Yeah, there's multiple studies that have found that circadian disruption correlates directly with increased flares, higher inflammatory markers, and worsened outcomes in conditions like lupus, rheumatoid arthritis, IBD and MS. And this is where sunlight becomes so fundamental because sunlight is the primary cue that sets and maintains the circadian clock. So your brain has this masterclock called suprachiasmatic nucleus, the SCN, and it receives direct input from the eyes. And the specific light signal it responds to most powerfully is bright, natural, outdoor light in the morning.
Jaime Hartman (17:53):
I definitely feel this in myself. I tend to wake up early at about the same time year round. And in the winter, that means before the sun has risen. But during the times of the year when I can get outside and light within the first 30 to 45 minutes of waking up, I do feel like my energy is more stable throughout the day. And I've learned that what's happening physiologically there is that morning light triggers what's called the cortisol awakening response. It's a healthy pulse of cortisol that's supposed to happen right after waking up. The cortisol is actually anti-inflammatory in the right context. It's that chronically elevated aberrant cortisol that we were talking about before with the nervous system dysregulation that causes problems. But the morning pulse of cortisol is healthy and necessary. If you don't get it, if you don't get that morning light cue and that cortisol awakening response, it's blunted.
(18:43):
Your cortisol then stays flat, your alertness is low, and your melatonin doesn't shift properly, and the whole rhythm just starts to drift. Now, another thing that I know comes up a lot is vitamin D. Most of us have been told, or many of us have been told to take a vitamin D supplement. So let's talk about why sunlight and vitamin D supplements are not the same thing, even though they both influence vitamin D levels.
Marie-Noelle Marquis (19:11):
So when your skin is exposed to UVB light from the sun, you get vitamin D synthesis, but you'll also get a cascade of other photo products. Nitric oxide, for example, which helps regulate blood pressure and immune function, beta endorphins, which have pain modulating and mood effects, serotonin precursors. These are all things that you simply don't get from that vitamin D supplements. Supplementing is still valuable for sure, especially for people in northern latitudes or you have a limited outdoor access or for those with severe deficiencies, but supplementing is one piece of a much bigger picture because the actual sun does something different. But wherever it comes from, vitamin D's role in immune regulation definitely is huge. So it directly modulates T-cells function, which is central to autoimmune disease. And a deficiency in vitamin D is strongly associated with an increase in disease activity across many autoimmune conditions.
(20:11):
So both the supplement and the sunlight matter, but for different reasons.
Jaime Hartman (20:16):
All right. Now, the flip side of morning light that we've been talking about is light in the evening, and this is where a lot of us are unknowingly sabotaging ourselves. The problem with light at night, artificial light in particular, and particularly the blue wavelength lights from phones, from tablets, and from overhead LED lighting, is that it mimics the frequency of daylight, and that tells the brain it's still daytime, which will delay melatonin release. And melatonin, we've probably all heard of, and you can buy a melatonin supplement, but what you may not realize is that melatonin is not just a sleep hormone. It is also a potent antioxidant in an immune modulator. Disrupted melatonin patterns are associated with higher levels of systemic inflammation.
Marie-Noelle Marquis (21:13):
So the practical prescription for evening is start dimming lights after sunset, switch to warm tone bulbs or lamps like those Himalayan pink salt lamp, get screens out of the bedroom, especially out of the bedroom using blue light filters or glasses on your devices, wearing the blue blocker glasses is the word I'm looking for in the evening. So when you put all this together, you have the morning light to anchor the clock. You've got the daytime outdoor exposure for the nervous system and the vitamin D, and then you're protecting the light environment in the evening. Then you have a really coherent daily rhythm that works with your biology instead of against it. And it doesn't require you to overhaul your whole light. It's incremental. Pick one anchor point and then build from there. It doesn't have to be perfect all at once.
Jaime Hartman (22:10):
Right. So we're going to bring this down to earth now. If someone's listening to this and they're thinking, you know what? I want to actually try something this week. What's the minimum effective dose? Marie-Noel, what would you say?
Marie-Noelle Marquis (22:22):
I would say morning sunlight and then one intentional nature moment. So that's it. Two things, right? And they can be tiny.
Jaime Hartman (22:34):
Morning sunlight could be just step outside when we say what, within an hour of waking or within an hour of the sun rising. Sunrising. And you awake before the sun. And no sunglasses too for at least those first few minutes. So the light reaches your retinas properly in order to set your circadian rhythm. Okay, that seems doable.
Marie-Noelle Marquis (22:54):
Right. And then a nature moment. That could be your lunch break on a bench, or it could be 10 minutes in a garden, sitting near a window with your eyes closed, listening to birds next to a plant, like you mentioned. The point is to be present with it, not multitasking through it, not like I'm going to be on my phone scrolling as I'm sitting next to the window.
Jaime Hartman (23:16):
All right. So for our listener challenge this week, I'm going to try to keep this as simple as possible. Maybe if it helps, you take your morning beverage, whether it's coffee or tea or just water, whatever you like to drink in the morning, whatever's part of your routine and your protocol, take it and go outside. Just that. Don't bring your phone, don't have an agenda. Just drink your beverage outside and notice what you notice.
Marie-Noelle Marquis (23:41):
And if you want to add to it, then maybe notice how your body feels inside for 30 minutes before going out and then compare it to how you feel 30 minutes after. Collecting your own data. As I'm saying this, maybe I'm thinking of myself, you don't have to go find a perfect notebook agenda to collect the data before you start doing it. But start understanding and connecting with your body in that way because your own body is really the best teacher.
Jaime Hartman (24:12):
And I do think we should acknowledge the real barriers that people might have here because we'd be doing a disservice if we didn't. So for some people, mobility limitations, particularly during a flare, could make outdoor time genuinely hard. Or maybe where they live, it's still cold or it's raining or snowing or the nearest green space requires a car trip. There could be things that make this feel really hard. So again, we've said it before, but we'll repeat it because it's really important. Even imperfect access counts. It could be as simple as just cracking open a window, listening to birds on a nature sounds app if you have to, if you can't get the real thing, sitting near a house plant in the morning light. It's really, it's not placebo. The nervous system actually does respond to those cues and you can stack a whole bunch of small cues even if the full outdoor experience isn't available.
(25:04):
Work with what you have that is always the AIP philosophy, right? We're not after perfection, we're after consistency and progress. Exactly. Okay. Before we wrap, I want to each share one thing we're personally committing to doing coming out of this episode, because I think it's good to walk the talk. Marie-Noel, what are you taking away?
Marie-Noelle Marquis (25:27):
Okay. I'm going to commit to my own advice. So these days I do get to work at five o'clock in the morning and then I stay inside the kitchen until sundown. So I'm learning from what we just said. So I'm going to commit to making a point to take 10 minutes and go outside when the sun rises and then taking that moment. I'm distracted. And then I'm just going to take my lunch outside. No phone.
Jaime Hartman (26:02):
Awesome. What about you? And I'm going to start collecting some of my own data, like you described. I'm going to start tracking my daily nature moments and how my body is feeling before and after. I mean, I know that my mood and my outlook improves for sure. I know that, but I don't typically zero in on the physical and connection to nature, and I think that could be really helpful for me.
Marie-Noelle Marquis (26:22):
Yeah, that's a great point. Listeners, if this episode resonated with you, please share it with a friend who has an autoimmune disease in a Facebook group, a Reddit forum with your practitioner. Definitely please encourage you to do that. This is a kind of accessible information that can genuinely change someone's daily life.
Jaime Hartman (26:43):
In the show notes, we will link to a few of the studies that we mentioned, including the Shin Rin-Yoku NK cell research and the Circadian Immune Connection papers. Feel free to share those as well, of course.
Marie-Noelle Marquis (26:54):
Thank you so much for spending this time with us today. Go outside, let the sun find your face. Your immune system will thank you. And remember that AIP is more than a diet. It is a protocol with multiple branches, multiple ways to approach it. And through this podcast, AIP Certified Coaches aim to bring you resources so that you can feel confident about doing AIP on your own, but with the knowledge that you are not doing it alone.
Jaime Hartman (27:18):
We'll be back with another episode in two weeks. You can find the AIP Summit Podcast in your favorite podcast player. So be sure to follow or subscribe to make sure you don't miss an episode.
Marie-Noelle Marquis (27:29):
And if you'd like to leave us a rating and review, it will help others find this podcast where we're committed to helping you use the power of the autoimmune protocol to elevate your wellness journey to new heights.
Jaime Hartman (27:44):
The AIP Summit Podcast is a Gutsy By Nature production. Content presented is for informational purposes only and is not intended to be a substitute for medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition.
