Marie-Noelle Marquis (00:07):
Welcome to the AIP Summit Podcast, your go-to resource for taking control of your autoimmune health presented by AIP Certified Coaches. Hi, I'm Marie-Noelle Marquis.
Jaime Hartman (00:17):
And I'm Jaime Hartman, and we're here to equip you with the tools, knowledge, and support you need to effectively use the autoimmune protocol.
Marie-Noelle Marquis (00:25):
And today we're exploring how an AIP Certified Coach's understanding of bioindividuality simplifies nutrition and makes healing possible even for people with multiple complex autoimmune conditions.
Jaime Hartman (00:41):
Before we dive in, a quick heads-up on what you're going to hear today. This conversation covers a lot of ground. We're going to walk through a detailed client case study with multiple diagnoses, and our guest, Marcia, will share some of her own family story. And then we're going to get a little deeper into the biochemistry behind what's known as bioindivideality, more detailed than we usually do. We'll be using words like histamines, salicylates, and oxalates. So please just stick with us even if a term or two feels new.
Marie-Noelle Marquis (01:21):
Thank you so much for joining us today, Marcia. Let's start by having you introduce yourself to our audience and then tell them how you found your way into AIP coaching, and specifically what made bioindividual nutrition the lens that you built your practice around.
Marcia Murata (01:38):
Hi, Jaime and Marie-Noelle. Thank you so much for having me today. I'm super excited. My name is Marcia Murata, and I am a Certified Coach and also bioindivideal nutritionist. So it all started because of my oldest daughter. She was diagnosed with psoriasis and Crohn's disease when she was only 14 months old. And when I learned that there were autoimmune diseases, because at that time I had no idea that there was something called psoriasis and that could be autoimmune, I started researching autoimmunity and came across the AIP. And that was very exciting, but it wasn't until much later that I became a certified AIP coach. I was overwhelmed. My daughter was 14 months old and I was pregnant expecting my second child, so definitely wasn't a time, but it certainly opened my eyes to the possibility of bringing her body back into balance and health through food.
(02:55):
And that changed everything for me. So we began changing her diet, and I noticed something that completely changed the way I looked at nutrition and food in general. She was doing okay, but she was also reacting to foods that are generally considered very healthy, like avocado, mangoes, zucchini, and even bone broth. And that's when I realized there was something beyond simply following an anti-inflammatory diet because everybody just is so different. We have different genetic makeup. Our hairs are different. Our skin is so different. We have different background. So it all made sense to me. And that's when I realized there was something beyond just anti-inflammatory foods and anti-inflammatory sort of a way of eating. And I wanted to understand more and why one person could just thrive on a food. My youngest daughter or my husband would be okay eating strawberries and avocado, and my daughter couldn't just even touch those foods.
(04:20):
And that curiosity eventually led me to bioindivideal nutrition.
Marie-Noelle Marquis (04:26):
Fantastic. And then your base certification is registered holistic nutrition. So how does that training compliment what you do as an AIP Certified Coach?
Marcia Murata (04:37):
Okay. I think it was a very comprehensive program because it gave me a very strong foundation of nutrition and biochemistry and physiology and functional health. And that foundation was invaluable, of course, because it allowed me to understand not only what may help someone, but also why it may help. I think it compliments AIP approach so well and allows me individualize my recommendations based on each person's unique physiology.
Jaime Hartman (05:12):
Right. Now that our listeners have learned a little bit about you and your background, we're going to transition now and spend a big chunk of our time talking with you today discussing a specific client that you shared a little bit of information with us about. This client has multiple autoimmune diagnoses. And so let's start without obviously sharing any of the identifying details. Let's start by just walking us through where this client was when she first came to you and you started working with her.
Marcia Murata (05:44):
Okay. So when she first came to me, she was really struggling. She had severe pain through her body, especially in her hands. Her hands had some damage already from the rheumatoid arthritis. She was overweight and had debilitating daily migraines that didn't improve even with any pain medication. And she was visiting the emergency room several times a month because of them. It was brutal. She also suffered from chronic constipation, dry eyes, psoriasis on her scalp and other areas of her body, poor sleep, and she simply didn't know what she was supposed to eat anymore. She felt overwhelmed and absolutely discouraged.
Jaime Hartman (06:34):
Yeah, I bet. What was her implementation AIP like at first? Did she do anything specific to prepare, to transition, to prepare for the elimination phase? And did she make any non-food lifestyle changes at the beginning?
Marcia Murata (06:49):
Yeah, so I think she was very. I don't think she wanted to eliminate any of the foods that she liked. That was why we never really openly discussed that. But as I explain AIP and the protocol and typically what we do, she didn't disagree with me, but she didn't seem very excited. And that's how I know when somebody's very, not hesitant, but maybe afraid to give up foods that they love. So we discussed reducing certain foods, but because she had rheumatoid arthritis, psoriasis, and Sjogren's, and so many other, just a lot of pain and just a lot of it. She was in a place where she was really, really struggling. So she said eventually she agreed to reduce and then remove grains and cereals, which was great, in addition to gluten, dairy, and soy. And we also removed nightshades. So that I think was a big one for her.
(08:06):
And she actually preferred remove everything right away, which was surprising to me rather than do it gradually because I suggested maybe we'll just do little bits at the time. Maybe we'll just do eggs in one week and then we'll just modify a little bit the elimination. But she goes, "No, you know what? I'll just do everything because I'm such in poor shape right now. I don't really care." So in the beginning, we didn't make any significant lifestyle changes because she was simply so exhausted and she had very little energy. She was in constant pain and needed to focus first on maybe nourishing herself through food before just adding anything else. So we focused on the wonderful AIP recipes, very nourishing and very gentle to the body, and eventually she started feeling better.
Jaime Hartman (09:01):
Yeah. How did you and how did she know that AIP was working for her? And then what did her healing look like week to week, month to month? Was there anything that was quick to resolve? Anything that was slower to resolve?
Marcia Murata (09:14):
Okay. She was really quiet for the first couple of weeks. And I was worried because I said, "Hey, are you okay? Are you feeling okay? How are you doing? Are you starving?" But she was very quiet for the first two weeks. And then the first thing she told me was, "You know what? For the first time, I don't feel like I have a stomach anymore." And I was like, "How is that?" And she said, "Well, I just don't feel that I have a stomach. I don't feel bloating anymore. I don't feel pain anymore. I just feel that there's nothing." And I said, "Whoa, maybe that's a good thing." Because she lived with constant bloating for years and suddenly that uncomfortable feeling was gone. And then her sleep started improving and her daily migraines and the migraines, which had struggled for years, they completely disappeared after three weeks, which was very, to me, I was so shocked.
(10:21):
But she said, "I don't have them." And she usually would have them in the morning. So one day she woke up and she texted, "You know what? I don't have migraines anymore. I don't even know. I don't even remember what is it like to wake up with a migraine." And over the following months, her joint pain gradually improved. Her dry eyes felt better, and eventually her psoriasis over on her limbs and the back of her head and scalp started to gradually disappear being that the lesions around the belly button were the last ones to disappear. Yeah, so that's how it happened.
Jaime Hartman (11:10):
Yeah. And what is your hypothesis and why do you think that the ones around her belly button took so long to disappear? Why did that pattern show up?
Marcia Murata (11:21):
Yeah, so that was actually very interesting because, and this is one thing that I notice with my psoriasis clients, that usually the first psoriasis plaques that in a client, or it could be a good tate psoriasis or the plaque psoriasis, usually when those lesions appear, they're usually the last ones to completely resolve. And it was the same thing with my daughter. So to my knowledge, and it hasn't been formally demonstrated in any clinical study, so it's simply a clinical observation. I want to make that clear here. But I think one possible explanation is that older plaques have been affected by inflammation for so much longer time. So over the months or years, the skin doesn't just become inflamed. It also changes locally. So certain immune cells remain in the skin. And even after the plaque begins to improve, almost as though the skin has a memory of the inflammation.
(12:29):
And researchers call these cells a tissue resident memory T cells. So if you think of a grassy field, like you're walking through a grassy field, if you walk along the same path once, the grass quickly springs back. But if you walk along that same path every day or for years, then a well-worn trail forms. And so even after you stop walking on it, the trail takes much longer to disappear. So I think that older psoriasis plaques may behave in a similar way because they've been inflamed and therefore so much longer. So it may take more time to fully return to normal than newer plaques. So this doesn't mean that older plaques can't heal. They certainly can and they do. It just may simply maybe explain why in some clients they seem to be the last areas to completely clear.
Marie-Noelle Marquis (13:30):
If I may just jump in really quick, I think it's really fascinating because I've had, that's not my specialty psoriasis, but I've had two clients with psoriasis and actually the first lesion that show up were the last one. And I just didn't think that it was a pattern or anything because I don't see it that's not what I specialize in. So it's really interesting to hear what your expertise has shown you. Yeah.
Marcia Murata (13:55):
And I saw that in my own daughter. She had the lesion around the diaper area. This is where it all started. And the doctors, when I looked at it, they told me this is a granulomanulary and it's going to go away on its own. You don't have to worry about it. But that lesion eventually at 14 months old, that lesion is the one that really exploded around that time. And that was the last one to disappear. And it was just so fascinating to me. And then I remember doing a lot of research around that time, but there's nothing really conclusive, I believe, in terms of medical studies or even. But this is what I found, and that's exactly what I see in my psoriasis clients. It's so interesting.
Marie-Noelle Marquis (14:49):
Yeah.
Jaime Hartman (14:50):
And I can add another point of a commonality to that from my personal experience. I have Crohn's disease, so entirely internal, but what I have found over the course of multiple colonoscopies is that as my disease flared and healed, that the last part to actually resolve has been the part of my colon that was the first to develop problems. So I think it's probably a pattern that repeats in all the places where it can be imaged. Obviously not all conditions can have that kind of a visual, but in that case, I've seen that as well. And that might be helpful for any listeners here who are hearing that who are feeling frustrated about some remaining plaque, some lesion that they're seeing that is still lingering, that there's still hope for it. There's probably a reason why it's taking a while, but just some more time may be all that's needed.
Marcia Murata (15:47):
So interesting. And even during COVID, she didn't have any flare-ups. My daughter, she didn't have any flare-ups, but I could see the lesion just underneath her skin around that same diaper area. I could see through the skin, it was slightly sort of a pinkish, sort of a reddish around that area. And I go, "Oh-oh, oh no." But it never really came to surface. But it was like the skin remembered.
Jaime Hartman (16:21):
Remembered.
Marcia Murata (16:22):
Yeah. That lesion, that trauma, because I think it's a trauma in a way. So it was so interesting to see, but I was like, "Oh, please don't. Don't flare up. Don't flare
Jaime Hartman (16:34):
Up." Wow. Well, let's wrap up our conversation about your client case study now by just talking about her reintroduction process. What was that like? And what is her diet like now? Or what was it like when you finished working with her?
Marcia Murata (16:47):
Okay. So we followed the standard AIP reintroduction process because I think it's so perfect. We used a structured spreadsheet. So by the end, she had successfully introduced all her food groups, and we were able to identify only a few foods that were still causing mild symptoms. So those foods were necessarily eliminated forever. She'd simply learned how to eat them more mindfully and in moderation. So she was able to reintroduce everything, but gluten-containing foods and I believe oats. I think those are still problematic or were problematic. But even rice, she had a mild reaction to rice and we were able to successfully introduce. So that was very good.
(17:45):
And I think our work together came to an end when finally she was able to ride a bicycle because she didn't have any pain in her hands anymore. She joined a dance group and her rheumatoid factor, which had started at around 746 and something crazy, gradually decreased to 400 and then 200 and then 60. So this is when I go, maybe you're in a place where you're finally able to manage your health and you don't need me anymore because she had at that point range of juice, everything. So I believe her diet now, we are still in touch, but her diet now, I think it's pretty much the same. I think she's just avoiding gluten. I know that she reintroduced dairy quite successfully, but she's still avoiding oats. Yeah, so that's what I know.
Jaime Hartman (18:46):
Yeah. We love it when our clients can graduate from working with us. Even when we are a little bit melancholy, maybe a little feeling like, oh, I'm going to miss talking to you, but I'm so happy you don't need me anymore. It's something I certainly celebrate in my practice.
Marcia Murata (19:01):
Yeah, me too. I told her, I think she didn't want to go, but I said, "You need to go. You're good. I mean, our work together, I think once we reintroduced everything but oats and gluten and dairy at that point, I said, well, you now know which foods you're reacting to and which foods. You have a good idea of which foods are good for you at this point and which ones you just have to not eliminate, but maybe consume in moderation, so I think you're good to go." And then she said, okay. And then she went.
Marie-Noelle Marquis (19:48):
How long was that whole process?
Marcia Murata (19:54):
I think it took us about, I want to say 18 months, 16 to 18 months. Yeah, it was a long process. I think not the elimination phase itself, but I think it took us a long time to reintroduce some of the foods, especially the nightshades, because she was so afraid of nightshades. So she wouldn't challenge her body with tomatoes and eggplants. But I said, "At one point we have to challenge the system. We have to challenge the body because ideally what we want is to have a very diverse and nourishing diet and not a restrictive one. So we'll just do it one step at a time. We'll just follow the reintroduction steps and you can do it." So I guess that we got a little stuck with that, with the nightshades. But yeah, eventually we worked through it. It was great.
Marie-Noelle Marquis (20:52):
That's such an inspiring client success story. So thank you so much for sharing it with us. Now I would love to dig a little more into your specific area of expertise. So you describe everyone as bioindividual. So for listeners who's new to that idea, how would you explain it in your practice? Not just in theory, but in practice. What does that mean?
Marcia Murata (21:19):
Okay. So my mentor is, her name is Julie Matthews, and I think she's the mother of bioindividuality, but the term bioindividuality was coined by Dr. Roger Williams. I think he's the father of bioindividual nutrition or biochemical individuality. So what I see in my practice usually is that people, regardless of their diagnosis, autoimmune diagnosis, they can react to certain foods that are considered healthy. So for example, tomatoes, cucumbers, strawberries, avocado. So biochemically, those foods contain compounds such as histamine, salicylates, or oxalates, and those may influence the release of these compounds in the body. So some people just simply will not tolerate a lot of histamine, and some people will be very sensitive to oxalates. I know there's a lot of talk around whether oxalates are a real thing or not. I know there's a lot of. But it is real. It exists. And yes, it can affect people in several ways.
(22:56):
Susan Owens, who's been researching oxalates for 30 years, she has a complete work on what oxalates are and how they can drive inflammation in some people. So I think that what I see in my practice is exactly that. Some people, they come to me afraid of food and they don't understand how it can be possible eating a banana can trigger migraines, for example, or just by eating an avocado can trigger migraines or hives. And this is when I explained to them that we're all bioindivideal. We all have our own unique biology, so we all have our own intolerances and sensitivities, and those may not be exclusively tied to gluten-containing foods or dairy or casin. It could happen with just any food, depending on who you are bioindivideally.
Marie-Noelle Marquis (24:00):
How would you say the bioindividuality itself changed the way that you approach, let's say, reintroduction compared to that more one-size-fits-all AIP?
Marcia Murata (24:11):
So for my client, she had a severe histamine intolerance and salicylate intolerance as well. So we delayed reintroduction of nightshades and certain foods like cucumber because she wasn't reacting to cucumber. So we removed cucumber for a couple of weeks, and then we reintroduced cucumber, but very carefully and cautiously because we didn't want that to trigger any reaction because she was already very sensitive. So for some clients, I may delay reintroducing certain foods, not only nightshades, but other foods when I notice that there is a particular reaction because of their bioindivideal chemistry. This is where I apply bioindivideal nutrition, but otherwise we'll just reintroduce foods following the AIP process.
Marie-Noelle Marquis (25:16):
And what is a food? I think you mentioned a couple of those, but what comes to mind as a food or a pattern where you've seen that two clients with the same diagnosis would react completely opposite ways?
Marcia Murata (25:31):
Yeah. Well, I see that every day actually, and I see that in my own family. I have two daughters and they're completely different. So my youngest, she has, depending of where she is at the moment, if she's stressed or already there's something going on with her that she's not very happy about because I think mood affect us immensely. And she loves limes and lemons. So if she's in that place where she's having probably not enough sleep because she's just too hyperactive or stressed or worried about something and then she's eating a lot of lemon, she will develop certain symptoms like the blinking. We call it the blinky eye. So she starts blinking and she starts having certain behavior. She becomes defiant, she becomes even more stressed and sensitive. And Marian, my oldest daughter, she doesn't have that issue with lemons. So she can have lemons, she can have a bucket of lemons, and she's going to be okay.
(26:51):
So I think that with people, it really depends on where they are biochemically. So for my daughter, I know for a fact that there's some deficiencies, like nutritional deficiencies that may happen around that time that will make her more sensitive to lemons and that may change the response that her body has towards lemons because it's salicylate. But I noticed with my clients, I noticed that even if they have the same, say, Hashimoto's diagnosis, they may react completely different to the same tomato because one may have more of a histamine intolerance than the other one. So it really depends, I guess here. This is when I guess bioindivideality really matters because we can't just say, oh, because you have Hashimoto's, then you're going to have an issue with nightshades in general because sometimes they could be okay with nightshades. It's just that because of their underlying issues, they may have issues with certain foods like tomatoes and eggplants and other foods that are considered healthy.
Jaime Hartman (28:11):
In a few words, how would you describe your philosophy, your signature coaching philosophy?
Marcia Murata (28:19):
All right. Okay, my philosophy. Okay. I think my philosophy is to help people stop chasing the perfect diet. I realize that this can create a lot of stress and sometimes guilt. So many people come to me afraid of food. They arrive with long list of foods they believe they can't eat, but very little confidence about what they can eat or how to eat. My goal is to simplify nutrition. I help people nourish their bodies first, understand their own bioindivideality, and make changes that are realistic enough to become part of their everyday life.
Jaime Hartman (28:56):
Can you just give us an example of what that would look like with a real client?
Marcia Murata (29:05):
And this is when I work with my clients very individually because what I like to do and what I believe in my practice that really works and it's very effective is I like meeting them halfway. So say there's somebody that they're very busy, they don't like cooking, but they like ordering food. So what is that we can actually do if you're somebody that hates cooking, has no time, but likes ordering food and are willing to pay for that price? So I literally help them choose what's best for them. And that will usually be the simplest foods. Something that it's a soup or it's something that's cooked or simply if they can't, it Just rice in some form of protein and cooked fiber. Or if they can, prepare something that's cooked like broccoli or any vegetable that they can that they find easy for them to prepare at home and then order some protein and rice and something on the side.
(30:21):
This is how I work with them because truly I notice that I can write anything on paper. I can put anything on paper. My protocol may look wonderful on paper, but it's just not going to work because they're not going to do it either because they don't have time or because they don't like cooking. So what I find helpful for them is exactly that, just meeting halfway and okay, agreeing. Okay, so it's fine if you like ordering food or if you like eating out, but let's see what are the best options for you.
Jaime Hartman (31:00):
I think that's very powerful, that idea of really looking at food from a place of nourishment and not just as something to fear. From there, then you can move into the deeper work. So I really appreciate you sharing how you meet people halfway.
Marcia Murata (31:16):
Yeah, and I also think that if I can add just something, I think that they're afraid of a judgment,
(31:23):
That they feel guilty, that they have to cook, that they have to follow recipes, that they're failing because they're not cooking. I see that a lot. And all I want to tell them is that there's no judgment, there's no criticism, there's just real life. And I see you. I see that you're busy. I see that you don't want to cook. I see that you don't like cooking, and that's okay too. So given that, what is that we can do so you can get more nourishment? And what are the foods that make sense to you bioindivideally?
(32:04):
Yeah, I went off track a little bit because I feel like whenever. It's just for me, when I start talking about food, I feel like I have to touch on that subject of guilt and shame that they feel because they do feel guilty. Because I feel like, oh, I should be cooking, I should be. I find for me, it's just so negative. I'm saying this because in my program, which I'm not running anymore, it's been three years and I just can't do it anymore. But I have tons of recipes and menus and stuff, but I noticed that only out of all people, only five to 10% can actually follow through. And that's a huge thing. And that is the biggest I find roadblocks sometimes for people to heal because they feel like if I don't prepare my meals at home, then there's no way I'm going to feel better.
(33:14):
And this is when I tell them, really, it's the simplest things. Whatever you cook at home will be better than whatever you order.
(33:25):
It is true. So if you have eggs and you can have just eggs and squash at home or eggs and sweet potatoes, that alone, if this is all you can make at home, that alone will be better than just anything else. This is when I really simplify the menu for my clients. It's still very nourishing because people that can tolerate liver and that sort of food, then it will be maybe built around that, but very nutrient-dense foods. But this is when I really like really simplifying, just forget all the herbs and they can't even think of like, oh my gosh, thyme. No, okay, then just forget it. Just do the basic. So what is it that works for you? This is when I really try to really simplify. And I find that for Crohn's disease and celiac disease, which can be really nourishing. So I really go very heavy on broths and slow cooked foods and all that.
(34:34):
I tell my clients, just get an Instapot and you'll be sad. All my recipes are built around just broth and that thing. And many people just don't like that, but I can't really say this, but this is how I work. I mean, this is what I know that works for you.
Jaime Hartman (35:00):
Yeah, I'm really glad you talked about that because it's something we don't talk about enough, honestly. There are so many people that I'll get into my practice or they'll come across in the AIP world who have literally known about AIP and wanted to do it for a decade now that we've been around for a longtime. They're like, "I've been following you since the beginning." And I'm like, "Well, the beginning was 15 years ago now." And they're like, "And I'm still struggling with trying to get started." And it is that guilt, it's that shame. It's like, "I can't do it perfectly, so I'm not doing it all." And I hate that they get that message from us. I feel like we have to keep working hard to break through that. And I'm glad you said it because this podcast will help.
Marcia Murata (35:44):
But in the book, our book, the features are amazing. My goodness, the casserole, everything's so pretty and beautiful that when I first started AIP with my daughter, I thought, "My gosh, there's no way. There's no way I can do this because look how it is. Look how it has to look." How it has to look. So I purposely send my clients the very ugly food that I make at home. Yes, I will. I'm going to send you the real life. That's what I tell them. Here's my can of
Jaime Hartman (36:23):
Sardines.
Marcia Murata (36:24):
Here's my can of sardines and here's my cilantro, me literally holding, you know what I mean? So I go, "Forget the beautiful pictures. Forget the cooking books." It just triggers something in people, especially the autoimmune people, the type A perfectionist. You know what I mean? So I go, "Do not look at pictures on internet. I will send you pictures of what this recipe looks like. And it's messy. This is what it looks like, but it tastes good. So just try it." That's what I tell them. I know it's ugly, but it tastes good and it's going to be good for you. That's what I tell them. Because if it's not like that, they will not do it. I notice that.
Marie-Noelle Marquis (37:09):
Thank you again so much for sharing your wisdom with us today, Marcia. Before we finish, what is the best way our listeners can find you or work with you?
Marcia Murata (37:25):
I work locally here in Canada. I'm also listed both in the AIP Certified Coach Directory and the BioIndividual Nutrition Directory, which many of my clients find me. You can also find me on my Instagram @marciabionutrition where I share some educational content in English. It's a brand new channel. I also have a much larger Portuguese-speaking community because I really wanted to give something back to my people. So over the past few years, I created and ran a bioindivideal autoimmune nutrition program in Portuguese. But this year I decided to take my work in a new direction. So I'm developing some exciting new projects that I'm really looking forward to sharing.
Jaime Hartman (38:15):
Again, thank you, Marcia, for joining us today for helping us remind our listeners that AIP is so much more than a diet. It's a protocol with multiple branches, multiple ways to approach it. As we always say through this podcast, AIP Certified Coaches aim to bring you resources so that you can feel confident about doing AIP on your own, but with the knowledge that you are never doing it alone.
Marie-Noelle Marquis (38:40):
We'll be back with another episode in two weeks. You can find the AIP Summit Podcast in your favorite podcast player. So be sure to follow or subscribe so you never miss an episode.
Jaime Hartman (38:50):
And if you would like to leave us a rating and review, it will help others find this podcast where we are committed to helping you use the power of the autoimmune protocol to elevate your wellness journey to new heights. The AIP Summit Podcast is a Gutsy By Nature production. Content presented is for informational purposes only and is not intended to be a substitute for medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition.
